I missed this when it first came out but it seems that Plaid Cymru and the SNP are so upset at being excluded from the Prime Ministerial debates that they are threatening to take their toys home.
The BBC report that each of the parties is to look again at their broadcasting policy and their support for the license fee in response to what they call a ‘stitch up’ over live Prime Ministerial TV debates:
SNP Westminster Leader Angus Robertson MP argued that broadcasters, “in cahoots” with the three political parties who would be taking part in the debates, are attempting to exclude entire countries from them.
He said: “A stitch up between the London based BBC management and the London parties has disenfranchised voters in three countries.
“With the cavalier attitude of London establishment continuing, we must devolve broadcasting to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly – where the interests of Scottish and Welsh licence payers will be a priority, not an afterthought.”
So the Nationalists want to take over the BBC so that they can dictate what they broadcast. How democratic. As for the withdrawal of support for the licence fee I bet the BBC Trust are shaking in their boots.
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This really speaks volumes about what everybody (apart from Lib Dems) already knows. That you say one thing and then do another.
Your supposed to be for fair and open, accountable government, and federalism. Apparently not in this situation. What if your dream of PR gets realised? Are you going to toe the “only the big parties” line then too? The fact is Plaid and the SNP are a party of government in their respective countries. They have a right to be on an equal footing with parties that have little influence in their own countires, and yet are going to get mass exposure. Why should there be a debate broadcast three times in Wales and Scotland, that will discuss issues such as healthcare and education, that have no relevance to their Welsh and Scottish audiences? Is there going to be a footnote at the bottom of the screen thoughout telling viewers in Wales and Scotland that what the leaders are currently talking about is totally pointless to them?
I understand why the Lib Dems have taken this line, but at least stop pretending its a principled one. Because it isn’t. Its about you not wanting to have the Lib Dem “alternative” vote eroded by other smaller parties. Smaller parties on a UK basis, but not in Scotland and Wales.
“So the Nationalists want to take over the BBC so that they can dictate what they broadcast. ”
No, they just want to be included. If anyone is “dictating what is broadcast”, it is Labour, Tory and Libdems (in collusion with the Beeb and Sky). THAT is undemocratic.
How would you feel if the debates were only Labour/Tory, and the Libdems were refused entry? Would you sit back and take it, or say “we want our say too?”.
Plaid and the SNP need to make up their mind. Are they Welsh and Scottish parties or UK parties? They cannot have it both ways and whereas they would absolutely be entitled to take part in debates in an election affecting only their respective countries, in a UK election they are irrelevant.
“Plaid and the SNP need to make up their mind. Are they Welsh and Scottish parties or UK parties? They cannot have it both ways and whereas they would absolutely be entitled to take part in debates in an election affecting only their respective countries, in a UK election they are irrelevant”.
What a stupid response Peter. Plaid and the SNP (and Mebyon Kernow) accept that their respective countries are currently part of the UK. They want to change that, and the change that they seek IS relevant to the whole of the UK.
Really, it seems to me that they want to have their cake and eat it
This is about democracy, Peter, Simple as that. What happens if there is STV at some point in the future which you, I imagine, would love? We could have a situation where smaller parties make up the majority of votes and indeed seats in parliament. Are you still going to toe this line then? Since you are supposedly in favour of open accountable federalism, why are you, for pure electoral fantasy, sticking to an outdated and deeply unfair line?
The votes of the big two are already falling election after election and it is not just the Lib Dems sweeping up this alternative vote. There could be a situation where soon the Lib Dems are the third largest party, but there could well be a nationalist/regionalist bloc from Wales, Scotland and NI that easily outnumbers you. If that happens would it be fair to not invite Nick Clegg or your next party leader?
You cannot reasonably argue that parties of government from two countries should be excluded, when your party, a total irrelevance in Wales and Scotland (Sorry to be so frank, but its true) gets this mass exposure. Surely the only fair way to do this would be to have seperate debates for Wales and Scotland on ITV and the BBC and then have an all UK debate on SKY.
I have to say that once again I feel you are playing into your own stereotype, that your party is all things to all people, that switches for electoral gain and will sell its soul for a few more seats here and there.
Except that all of that is pure speculation on your part and does not refect the actual situation on which the decision was taken. Plaid and the SNP maybe in government but they are not in government at a UK level and nor are they likely to be despite the ridiculous hype of a mythical celtic bloc of MPs. This is a UK election and at this level Plaid and the SNP are irrelevant. I am perfectly happy with separate debates for Wales and Scotland as in the devolved context the UK issues are different and I am also happy for Plaid and the SNP to participate in them but they should be additional to the main Prime Ministerial debates. As for the Lib Dems being a total irrelevance in Wales and Scotland you need to check again. We have the second largest block of MPs in both countries.
It is speculation, but it is speculation that you as a Liberal Democrat who I imagine believes in PR would love to become a reality. You can call it a mythical bloc of Celtic MP’s but if Plaid go to 6 or 7 seats at this election Peter and the SNP go into double figures, it won’t be so mythical then.
I note that you mock the idea of what I have mentioned, even though it is something that if the Lib Dems have their way, could certainly become an easy reality, it already is becoming a reality even under FPTP. Yet you still write as though the Lib Dems have an actual chance of even getting beyond your current 60 odd MP’s at this election?! The idea of Nick Clegg becoming PM is far more speculative fantasy than anything that I have mentioned. Polls in Wales consistently are showing you dropping around 6% from your 2005 high of 18% so… My point I think stands. If its good enough for Nick then its good enough for Ieuan and Alex too!
Whether I want it to become a reality or not, it is still not the basis on which these decisions are made and that is my point. In the world that we really live in the dec ision to exclude Plaid and the SNP from these debates is the right one because they are not fielding candidates across the UK in a UK election and because they have no chance of producing the next Prime Minister.
The idea that Plaid will get 6 or 7 MPs and the SNP go into double figures is a fantasy and will not happen under FPTP which, just in case you have not noticed is the basis on which the General Election will be fought.
As for the Liberal Democrats I dont just believe that they will get more than 60 seats I think it is a near-certainty. As for Wales, the latest polls may show us less than 18 per cent but actually they are roughly at the same level as they were in 2005 when we went up to 18% during the course of the election.
Plaid and the SNP are irrelevant in this UK election and that is why they are not in these debates.
To say that Plaid and the SNP are irrelevant in the UK election is factually incorrect – Plaid will be relevant in my constituency and the programmes will be broadcast in my constituency. The logic extension of your argument isn’t just that the nationalist parties are irrelevant but that the constituencies in which they are standing are also irrelevant.
“Plaid and the SNP are irrelevant in this UK election and that is why they are not in these debates.”
Peter Black, it would be interesting to see whether you think the DUP (for example) is irrelevant to the UK election?
Actuallly, yes they are irrelevant in a UK wide election but not in Northern Ireland.